Conversation between Ka-Tjun Hau and David Smeulders

De Appel is pleased to announce that Ka-Tjun Hau took on the role of Curator of Embedded Art (formerly titled Curator of Education) as of March 1 of this year. Ka-Tjun took over the position from David Smeulders, who has taken on this role since 2017 and has shaped it with commitment. Over the years, a whole series of neighborhood-oriented art and education programs and exhibitions have emerged for young and adult publics, who are rooted in de Appel’s ecosystem and its immediate geographical surroundings. David Smeulders assumed the role of head of cultural education, cultural makers and word art at the Amsterdam Fund for the Arts starting March 1. To mark this change in de Appel’s team between David’s leaving and Ka-Tjun’s arrival, they sat down together to discuss the role of education within the arts and specifically at de Appel.

K: David, how did you start, what were the conditions like 7 years ago? What did art education look like then?
D: The situation today is a bit similar to the situation seven years ago. I joined de Appel when the institution was moving to a new location. For the first time, de Appel moved from the center of Amsterdam to broedplaats Lely in Nieuw-West. De Appel found itself in a very different environment, so I started listening to the stories of the new local residents and started conversations with schools, community centers and other organizations. From these stories and experiences, the educational programs were born and have grown over the years into what they are today. De Appel has just moved to broedplaats Tempel in the Diamantbuurt. Once again, de Appel can establish a neighborhood-oriented program while carrying along deeply rooted connections in Nieuw-West.

K: How did this translate into programs?
D: I worked on a program for toddlers, children, adolescents and adults. To achieve this we collaborated with different neighbours, artists, groups and organisations*. They played a key role in making de Appel a place for the people around us, incorporating their stories, skills, experiences and knowledge into de Appel's institutional framework. As a result, the Appel itself changed structurally.

The Teenage Curators program is co-founded by a group of teens from the surrounding neighborhood and was developed in collaboration with Fouad Lakbir. It’s a year-long curatorial programme for young people (15-19 years) who do not see themselves, and their stories, reflected in the arts and culture presented in formal arts spaces and institutions. This year the young curators are working towards the presentation of a new public work of art in Amsterdam Nieuw-West. With this work of art we can materialise their knowledge and experiences and also present them to a wider audience. This work is also the result of the many years of relationships we have built in the neighbourhood.

With the Kentalis/Signis schools, we created the programs Sound Gestures and The Body as a Teacher, in which we worked with artists to imagine new learning environments based on the diversity of all bodies, so that all children feel welcome and have opportunities to learn and grow. De Appel and artist Hana Miletic formed the collective The Shadows Assembly, which explores the value and social role of textile practices. Their collective work The Curtain (2019), made at de Appel, is now permanently included in the Amsterdam Museum's collection. Jaleesa Clows collaborated with de Appel and several local elementary schools to create the children's newspaper West Side Tori's, made by and for children in New West featuring the art and culture that matters to them.

In addition, we have also developed the home-kit and playkit where children and adults playfully discover de Appel and their home environment.

*A huge thank you from de Appel to everyone involved in the development of the programmes all the artists, community workers, activists and educators who made these programs possible. With special thanks to: Comenius Lyceum, Huibersschool, Kentalis/Signis schools, Louis Bouwmeesterschool, OBS De Toekomst, Bureau Postjesweg, OBA Postjesweg, Calandlyceum, Calvijn College, Atelier West, Bijzonder Amsterdams, Buurthuis Het Anker, Ru Paré Community, The Beach, Vrouw en Vaart and many others.

K: Why are education programs important within art institutions? Are they even necessary?
D: I think the role of artistic processes and collaborating with artists is not present enough in our society. By collaborating with artists, educational processes can be approached from a completely different perspective. Often children and young people feel excluded from our educational processes. Art institutions can play an important role in enabling learning in other ways, which is currently not given enough time in our formal educational institutions.

K: What have been the important learning moments of the past seven years?
D: An important learning lesson for me was that arts institutions also have a lot to learn, and need to get closer to their immediate environment again. Because it is precisely in these local connections that the whole world resides.

This translated itself in art and education programmes that took place within the social and learning environments of our neighbours and not at de Appel itself. Through time a more honest dialogue emerged between the location of de Appel and the neighbourhood schools and community centres. We started with small initiatives in our neighbourhood environments and let the artistic and social initiatives grow through time. You need a few years to integrate art and education programmes within the ecosystem of the local environment and also within the institute.

Next to going outside of the art institute it walls and give the initiates time to grow also personal contact, learning to listen and embracing the stories and skills of your neighbours is key to an art institution that is at the center of society. Unfortunately, sometimes there is still too little time for this. By working in a collective way everyone gains a sense of ownership in the processes that we initiate to create a sense of belonging. This was an important starting point for all the programmes and exhibitions we created together.

Also, participants' experiences with the programs, as Safae from the Teen Curators program told us, "By joining the Teen Curators, I discovered the value of my own story."

From March 2024, Tempel in Amsterdam Zuid is the new home to de Appel. The ambition for the coming years here is also to make local connections with the neighborhood, surrounding schools and the people who live there. Education is a big part of this.

D: Ka-Tjun, how do you see the future of education at de Appel?
K: Within art education, I think it's important to focus on connection and imagination. I completely agree with David that artistic processes of artists go unnoticed. In the past, as a local cultural scout, I have worked to connect makers, local residents, cultural institutions and local initiatives in Amsterdam. In doing so, I considered making new connections, connecting people and referring them on as my most important tasks. What struck me is that makers and audiences have trouble finding each other. There is a certain distance between cultural practitioners, workplaces and presentation institutions, which results in makers and their creative processes being overlooked. This original context of art is invaluable, especially for young audiences, where a diversity of recognizable stories is so important to the imagination.

De Appel's education program will continue to develop content within the Embedded Art program in the near future. Where we focus on art education in schools, extracurricular talent development and programs in the neighborhood. I’d like to make connections and build relationships in the neighborhood in the time to come. From an educational perspective, I think it's important to work together with both schools and makers. Within Amsterdam there are differences in needs for art and culture between neighborhoods. This depends on demographics, infrastructure and what is available. The way this is offered or facilitated is essential; do people feel involved, are their stories heard?
We want to facilitate a learning environment that is determined by the participants themselves. Here we want to focus on a broader community of professional and non-professional cultural workers of different ages in developing and implementing the audience program. With this, we want to establish not just project-based connections, but rather long-term collaborations that ultimately lead to community participation. Where neighbors, visitors, artists, cultural workers can be participants and can together create a place for meeting and exchange. Sincere involvement and shared ownership are important aspects here, and will be present from the beginning. This approach requires a neighborhood-oriented approach with local residents and initiatives that can take on an active participating role, but at the same time a challenge and learning process for de Appel. We will use a methodology that has emerged within community participation and collective learning, and finds its inspiration in Lumbung. This Indonesian term ('rice barn') is about a form of communal collective work. Lumbung practice is rooted in the local and is based on values such as generosity, independence and transparency. This way of working will be integrated throughout de Appel's practices, including our educational projects. From now on, therefore, we will speak of "embedded art," where we will give more shape to the collective and investigative element within education.

D: In recent years you have been involved at de Appel. Can you talk a little about your previous involvement and how you got into art education from that experience?
In 2022, I participated in the Curatorial Program of the Appel. While developing our exhibition "Super Feelings," we as a group involved the Teen Curators in this project. They were also creating an exhibition and public program at the time. In doing so, we received very valuable insights and feedback that helped our project move forward. On the other hand, this also provided creative input for the Teen Curators in creating their exhibition program. Something that really impressed me was the ease with which they created a very warm and sympathetic atmosphere in an unusual exhibition space (ed: the auditorium of the former de Appel building in Nieuw-West) that I don't often see in regular museums. During their exhibition "If you really knew me..." the young people organized an iftar where everyone was welcome, to break the fast together and close their exhibition. To me, that is a very nice example of how an exhibition venue can provide a space for connection and sharing of each other's traditions and stories. As far as I am concerned, we can open the doors to each other much more often.

Since late last year, I have been helping the Teen Curators develop a public artwork that will be placed on the new housing complex behind broedplaats Lely. A project with great impact and meaning because the artwork represents the stories and experiences of young people from the neighborhood and will be permanently on display in the public space. In addition, the process is also very instructive for the Teen Curators and de Appel because we not only work with artists, but also with an architectural firm, a project developer and construction company. The launch of the artwork this summer will be festively celebrated with a public program at which local residents from New West are warmly welcomed.

I am very happy to take over the baton, and to build on the solid foundation laid by David over the past 7 years. I look forward to filling this position with great enthusiasm!