Level Five – interviewed by Tropical Tap Water

For the 30th edition of de Appel’s Curatorial Programme (CP) we have welcomed four collectives who are learning and practising lumbung as a model and method for collective organisation. The CP is geared towards taking the lumbung practices of documenta fifteen as a case study. Lumbung during documenta fifteen developed into both a rhizomatic collective of collectives, and the practice of decentralised collective redistribution, transforming the art institution and its exhibitionary logic. This edition of the CP is dedicated to collectives whose art and curatorial practice are distinguished by their role as a conduit for the communities with which they engage. The programme is in collaboration with Sandberg Institute’s Temporary Master Programme and Gudskul’s Collective Study and extends into 2025/2026 as a fellowship.

Tropical Tap Water interviewed the participating collectives. Here you can find their conversation with Level Five, a cooperative studio for and by artists in Brussels. They collectively organise and take care of their spaces and the people making use of them, creating a durable foundation for each of their artistic practices and initiatives. The participating member present in Amsterdam is rori.

Daniel, Tropical Tap Water (D, TTW): Who are you and what is Level Five?

rori, Level Five (r, L5): I'm rori. I'm currently one of the two coordinators of Level Five. I got involved in Level Five because I was hanging out in the studio spaces. Most of my friends are artists but I don't have a background in arts, I studied political philosophy. And then I organized some exhibitions and events and I got really interested in sharing the process of making art. I grew up in places with 20 people around all the time, since I grew up in a family who were running restaurants. I enjoy being part of a bigger group, doing things together. This is how I got involved in organizing these places for artists' work and realized that I could also bring in some of my own experiences with political organizing. It is a paid position, but we are collectively taking care of our spaces. In Level Five, everything seems very practical, but there are always philosophical discussions. Like, who's gonna clean the toilet? Do we put locks on things or not? What is shared? Very down-to-earth conversations, which need a little bit of a broader worldview to discuss. Level Five was started by a group of artists because, at one point, a large part of the group had to move out of their studios. Instead of being in competition for the same spaces, we made an effort to connect and organize together for a larger space, which was successful. We created a non-profit when things started to grow. We realized that by being together there was much more being generated than as individuals. This kind of surplus of being together was one of the things that was very interesting for us. Level Five functions as a cooperative, so each member still has their own practice, but we collectively take care of the working space and the people that use it.

D, TTW: How do you see Level Five’s involvement in the Lumbung Practice Program? Why did you apply?

r, L5: We're five years into Level Five and it evolves a lot. We had to move out of our first space, then we had to move again and we landed in three separate places. We were trying to figure out, who are we together if we are in different spaces? But still, the attachment to the idea of Level Five as a community and the relationships that exist within were quite strong. We overcame that separation and I feel like we're still building something. Now we are with around 100 to 120 people. After five years, now we have to look ahead again. What are we gonna do for the coming five years? This is one of the reasons why we applied to the Curatorial Programme. Things at Level Five are always ongoing, so it's quite difficult to take a step back and reflect. With the CP, we create a space for thinking about what we are doing; we learn with and from the other participants.

Firstly, we always had common spaces at Level Five but recently we set up a dedicated project space, which can be used by members for workshops, exhibitions and screenings. This made us want to find out how we could create a space in which we can rehearse being a community, and not be yet another container for exhibitions. We are trying to find examples and some kind of guidelines for programming a community run space like this. Secondly, we are always talking of Level Five as a supportive environment. If we want to develop, what does that mean? How do we make an economy around Level Five that supports its members? How do we deal with conflict? And how can we learn from each other? How can we connect with people outside of Level Five, outside of the arts or of different generations? And lastly, all of our current locations are temporary. It takes a lot of energy to create a new place. Now that we have three locations, we see that having to move almost every two years is really undermining the project. Both financially and regarding what we build up as a community, all the relations are cut, and you have to rebuild them in a different location. We have this energy now, but it is difficult to maintain in the long run. We really want to find ways of collective ownership for a long-term space, so we have at least something stable to fall back on. From there, we can always move out or create new things.

D, TTW: Have you already practiced something similar to the Lumbung?

r, L5: By being together with around 80 artists, surplus came out, like knowledge of where to buy certain materials and how to work with them. Just from sharing a space, there are many exchanges and people started collaborating organically. From the beginning, we made sure there was space left open, undesignated: two rooms and a kitchen. We discussed what could happen there and who takes care of them. This resulted in us as a community needing to discuss things, and form a shared vision and practice around these spaces.

Regarding the economy, we had a system from the beginning but this changed over time. Everybody in Level Five is a member, which means they also participate in decision-making or guiding the direction of the organization. The membership is €60,- per year, and for that we can pay office costs and accounting. On top of this, everybody contributes €20,- per month. Half goes to the location and half goes to the community. For example, €5,- goes to groceries, things we use together, and ​​€5,- goes into volunteer work. The other half goes back into the community, to things like artistic programs, something at every location or an initiative of one of the members. Another €5,- is kept to secure the future of Level Five, a kind of backup if something goes wrong. Or it can be a starting budget for collective ownership of a space.

There are other initiatives as well. For example, during COVID we had something called Care Web, which was a collective budget that we used for people who couldn't afford their studio because they temporarily couldn’t work. This way, people didn't have to give up their studio, which is really important for us. You didn't have to argue why you needed it, it was based on trust, and that worked really well. This solidarity and keeping people together helped our community. What other Lumbung-like things do we do? Well, we clean together and cook together.

D, TTW: Why are you called Level Five?

r, L5: We are called Level Five because our first location was on the fifth floor of a former unemployment office in the center of Brussels. It was simply referring to the floor and then people tried to attach more meaning to it. There is also a film of the same name by Chris Marker but I never watched it. The unemployment office in Brussels moved to another building. The government could have placed some kind of interesting infrastructure for social organizations in the middle of the city center, but instead, they chose to sell the building. We were there for a while, for in-between use. Now, it's in the hands of a private owner and developed into luxury apartments, lifestyle shops and commercial co-working.

D, TTW: Why is it important for Level Five to work collectively?

r, L5: Arts and education are quite focused on this individual trajectory of certain names that get recognized. But in reality, most of the artists have multiple jobs, either in a restaurant or sometimes teaching. Trying to be an artist in Brussels, you kind of have to have some survival methods, by having multiple incomes. What most artists want to primarily do is develop and share their artistic practice and interests, which is difficult to maintain after you leave your study community at the arts academy. The same goes for the equipment used, tools for printing or other workshops that are not accessible anymore. We are coming together to try to find out how we can organize such an environment between ourselves — to continue searching for ways to be an artist in the long run. That's what we're here for. People are supported in what they do; you wouldn't be able to do that if you do it alone. I'm a bit hesitant to say that we are a collective. We work collectively towards something. Everybody has their own artistic practice and sometimes they get more intertwined with others, and then they move on. So we are like a multitude of people, but still, trying to see what we can do together.

D, TTW: Is there something else you’d like to mention?

r, L5: I just want to mention how we are participating in the Curatorial Programme, because I feel that we didn't touch upon that. So I'm now in Amsterdam for one year, and we also made a budget for other Level Five members to join. So weekly, I'm participating in the programme, but I also coordinate people coming to Amsterdam, and that they have a place to sleep and get a refund for the bus tickets, so that more of the 120 members can participate and learn the lumbung ways. This way we can learn together and find practices that we can bring back to Brussels.

Tropical Tap Water are professional jammers, open for hire for birthday parties, weddings, exhibitions, mournings, festivals and what not. Our dream is to play in a conference. The members are Daniel Aguilar Ruvalcaba, Diana Cantarey, Julian Abraham “Togar” and Simnikiwe Buhlungu.